BaseballBiz 243 Jennifer Ring Women in Baseball - 

[00:00:00] Mark Corbett: Welcome to BaseballBiz On Deck. I am Mark Corbett your host and with me today, I have Dr. Jennifer Ring and man, I got to tell you what, when it comes, we've talked about this before folks, when it comes to talking about women in baseball, I'm like, fantastic. I, you know, it's been there forever, but as you think I discovered gold and nobody had seen it before, but that's how it was for me.

[00:00:27] Mark Corbett: And I'm excited because. Dr. Ring. I mean, my goodness, when I first started learning more her book, when I dug this out, it's like, Oh my gosh, A Game of Their Own This. Book, it gave me so much more of a introduction to the women in this game, mostly from the last 20 years. But instead of me just jabbering on, let's introduce Dr. Ring. Hey, doctor, how you doing today? 

[00:00:52] Dr. Jennifer Ring: I'm just fine, Mark. Thanks for inviting me on. 

[00:00:55] Mark Corbett: Okay. You said before we started, it was okay for me to call you Jenny. So I will. When, when I invite you on this show and you asked me, well, what do we talk about? And I suddenly realized I wrote down a, a small thesis, geez, Mark, what are you going to have her on the show for a couple of days?

[00:01:12] Mark Corbett: No, I mean, there, there are so many great things to talk about with women at baseball and you cover some of them in your book, stolen bases, but a game of their own is kind of the one I would talk a little bit about today. And, uh, you know, this is also timely because we get the, the U. S. Women's National Baseball Team and they're going to be going for the World Cup up in Thunder Bay, Ontario here and well, I guess at the end of this month, 

[00:01:38] Dr. Jennifer Ring: I think the end of July.

[00:01:40] Mark Corbett: So a lot of the ladies that are there. You know, you cover, I guess the book came out in 2015, who were on the team and performing at the world cup and some other tournaments as well. Some of them now are actually like coaches of the team, like, uh, see Veronica Alvarez and some others. Tell me a little bit about your conversations with some of those young ladies.

[00:02:02] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Oh, well, you didn't warn me about that. 

[00:02:05] Mark Corbett: Okay. Well, let's scratch it and start again. 

[00:02:09] Dr. Jennifer Ring: They are, it's just been Mark, as you know, it's been a while since I wrote the book. Um, and it's about the 2010 women's world cup, which was in Caracas, Venezuela, and, uh, a very dramatic tournament because there was a shooting.

[00:02:26] Dr. Jennifer Ring: A woman on the Hong Kong team got shot in the leg by a stray bullet in Venezuela. So, You know, it, uh, It was a very dramatic tournament, and I interviewed, um, after the tournament, uh, ten of the players, the kind of starting lineup, um, and I knew some of them, because my daughter Lily had, uh, was a baseball player and had played on, on, uh, the U.

[00:02:51] Dr. Jennifer Ring: S. Women's National Team, uh, three times, I guess she was selected, and, um, so I knew the women, and I, I picked it. The players who were starters and I also picked the players I knew best and who I thought knew how to tell a story and were introspective and had a sense of humor about it. I just, I wanted some good storytellers.

[00:03:18] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And even though I thought I knew these women and I got a grant and traveled around the country and they graciously, you know, put me up in their homes or their hometowns. Um, and we talked sometimes went on, the interview went on. All day and sometimes a couple of days. Wow. And, um, You know, they're just extraordinary women and with so much perspective on themselves and who they are and how they hung in there for baseball because that's what they loved.

[00:03:53] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Um, so I, you know, and, and strong women, as you can imagine. They're athletes, um, and then they know how to take a hit and they know how to lose and they know how to win and they're gracious and smart women. Every one of them cried at some point or another during the interview. And I guess if you want me just to sum up what talking to 10 women like that was like, it was that there were tears shed every time we talked.

[00:04:22] Mark Corbett: Well, it's, it's passionate game and it's to me, Jenny, when I look at this and I see that team. Yeah. You and I've talked before and others as well. And we know that you see entire leagues with several teams come up with great talent on each of those teams. The challenge with the USA women's baseball team is one.

[00:04:46] Mark Corbett: They're the only team. They're not in a league in the U S with anybody else. They are the elite. Of the elite and these women, as far as coming together and practicing, you know, I'm sitting here. I'm, I'm reading some of the things, the posts from Veronica Alvarez and Tamara Malaika and some of the others.

[00:05:05] Mark Corbett: And I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, they're still picking a roster. They're still gathering the young ladies that are going, to play for this. They're going through their trials. So you're going to. you're going to need for your team. And then you've got what, maybe a week or so before the tournament actually begins, and it is gotta be a grand right now for all of those people pulling that together.

[00:05:29] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Yeah, I'm sure of that. I spoke at length to Veronica recently, um, and also Tamara and both of them. I think things have improved since the book that I wrote was about the 2010 tournament and now it's 14 years later. It's my math. It's my math, right? 

[00:05:51] Mark Corbett: You're doing better than me. 

[00:05:54] Dr. Jennifer Ring: What you just described is absolutely a description of what the women and the team went through in 2010.

[00:06:03] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Um, and in the earlier years, You know, I haven't been following it closely since then, but I think things have, some things have improved and some things not. Um, you know, I know Veronica is, And Tamara both very upbeat about the quality of the players now and the fact that there are preparatory tournaments in between the two year periods so that the the Coaches of team usa can see who's out there the scouts can they can scout the women But it's still as you say very haphazard.

[00:06:41] Dr. Jennifer Ring: There's no leak There's no team of women. Most of the women who are experienced baseball players survive as baseball players by being the only girl or the only woman on a boys or a men's team and That's rough. I mean, it's yeah, it's great competition and you learn the skills because the coaches and the players are baseball players It's it's You know, and I may offend some, some of the women when I say this, but they're not softball players.

[00:07:11] Dr. Jennifer Ring: I don't think you can learn the inside baseball by growing up playing softball. And if that's what they're doing is shoving girls into softball, they're not going to learn the, the skills, the, the nuances of the game, which to me makes baseball so thrilling. It's, it's such a subtle. Mental game as well as a game of physical prowess.

[00:07:35] Dr. Jennifer Ring: So, you know, I think there are more girls coming up and sticking with baseball, but from what I hear, at least from my sources in USA baseball, um, there's, there's more talent to draw from. And I know, uh, both Veronica and, uh, Tamara Holmes. I haven't talked to Malaika for a while, but I'll bet she'd say the same thing that, that the 2024 team USA is the most talented, um, deep team of, uh, baseball playing women that they put together.

[00:08:13] Mark Corbett: I'm excited about it. I really am. And. As far as the depth of that team and pulling it together, I, I had the good fortune to go down on Jackie Robinson day to Vero beach, and they had the trailblazer series going on that week. And you see these young women, you see Malaika out there, you see, uh, Veronica, you see Tamara and several others.

[00:08:34] Mark Corbett: I can't conjure all the names a moment. I think Kelsey Whitmore's there too. And they're, they're working with all these younger girls. And these are the girls that may not be on the team. This tech go around. But they might be the next, uh, who is it? Like there's, there's a, like a 16 or 17 year old young lady.

[00:08:52] Mark Corbett: That's probably going to make that team this year back. Gosh, the talent. And I'm glad to see, I think the MLB develops working with. Baseball USA. And I'm, I'm never a critic of MLB, but I mean, in this particular instance, it feels like there's a good thing that's happening there. And that's going to be fortunate for those young women.

[00:09:14] Mark Corbett: It's going to be fortunate for the team and hopefully for the whole idea of women in baseball. 

[00:09:20] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Yeah, I, you know, I gave a talk, um, at Cal State Northridge, Cal State University, Northridge, uh, on women in baseball, uh, a few months ago, earlier in the season. And, um, when we got to the question period, somebody Asked, did I think it would be helpful if some major league baseball players would speak out about the women who are playing baseball?

[00:09:45] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And I thought, what a great idea, you know, what this, uh, questioner was saying is, you know, some of the NBA stars are really supportive of the WNBA and of women's basketball. Wouldn't it help? Because the question is, why do we have to keep reinventing this? Why do you have to be surprised to learn about this?

[00:10:08] Dr. Jennifer Ring: You know, and, and it's over and over again, you know, people are like, Whoa, these girls can play. Wow. We have women baseball players that it shouldn't really be so newsworthy. I hate to say it that way. It should, it should be sports as usual. But, you know, so it might be that not only MLB, um, you know, which is trying a little bit, um, to get involved, but some, some of the players with names, some of the, um, you know, could kind of sponsor the whole notion of women's baseball.

[00:10:44] Dr. Jennifer Ring: It's going to take something to kind of routinize it, which is what I'd like to see, you know. I think in the intro, a few pages of a game of their own, I described that game at Birmingham High School, where, um, uh, Marti Sementelli was pitching for Birmingham High, and, uh, Oz Sailors was pitching for San Marcos High School, and you had the entire Los Angeles media out there.

[00:11:17] Dr. Jennifer Ring: I mean, which is significant. You couldn't get near the parking lot because of the news trucks. Because two girls were pitching in a baseball game. And while I, I appreciated all of it. The coverage and everything, what I really was thinking is, this isn't that newsworthy, it shouldn't be that newsworthy, you know?

[00:11:38] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Two high school players are girls and they're pitching in a baseball game. Um, so, you know, I kind of like to see it become so normal that you don't have to call out the L. A. media every time a girl steps on a pitcher's mound. 

[00:11:55] Mark Corbett: Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I forgot which one of the interviews it was recently, and I was talking about Rachel Balcovec coming up as a manager in single A, and then, you know, she's moved on now with the Marlins of player development, and I said, and what was it?

[00:12:09] Mark Corbett: It's like all the lights came on. Where did this, you know, this woman's now, she's the first coach or manager for a single A baseball team. I said, yeah, but why don't you look a little closer? This woman's been working with the Yankees and develop with their organization for a while already. She had already been like a strength coach and done all these other things, but we're going to put a spotlight on her today because she is the first one.

[00:12:29] Mark Corbett: Yeah. Okay. Respect what she's achieved. Respect that she's got that position, but it shouldn't be like you're saying it shouldn't be a large media event. It should be a matter of course, that this happened, you know, and, and. I, I'm glad that the coverage is there because it does wake up a lot of folks, but at the same time, like you're talking about those two young ladies face one another.

[00:12:53] Mark Corbett: No, it, it shouldn't have been a media event. I'm glad it was, but it shouldn't have been a media event. 

[00:12:58] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Well, I, I understand completely what you're saying. Of course we need all the coverage we can get, but if it were more routine, um, it would have the same coverage as any kind of good high school game has, you know what I mean?

[00:13:11] Dr. Jennifer Ring: They get coverage or. I don't know if you, um, you know, in, in A Game of Their Own, I cover the, um, 2010 Women's World Cup in Caracas, Venezuela. And I think, as I mentioned, there was a shooting. I, a girl got shot while she was playing. I think it was second base, um, from the Hong Kong team and the Hong Kong team went home and the whole tournament was And, you know, this is like the first day of competition and the whole tournament was threatened and the players had been locked down while they figured out where this shot came from.

[00:13:49] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And I want to tell you that was not covered. Now that isn't newsworthy, you know, it said there was the women's World Cup baseball tournament and a player got shot. And you know, if it was the men's, whatever they call the, the equivalent, I mean, they've professional players playing on team USA. I mean, at that point, Derek Jeter, who got narrowly missed by the bullet, I think it would have been in the news.

[00:14:17] Mark Corbett: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it is weird. What's newsworthy and what isn't. And you draw a good attention. I do want to talk about that one chapter from Kerry to Caracas for a moment to that, that really kind of, it was interesting because you're talking about this team that's getting together and they're training in the U S and they're even up playing, playing some games against Canada to kind of get comfortable, but.

[00:14:43] Mark Corbett: When they go to Caracas, this isn't Disneyland, boys and girls, this isn't wild world sports down there. No, you're getting, you're getting, they're getting on buses that are, the windows are blacked out. They're riding for three hours. Is that, is that right? 

[00:14:59] Dr. Jennifer Ring: I, yeah, I wasn't there, but that's, I interviewed them.

[00:15:02] Dr. Jennifer Ring: That's why I went there. That's what they all said. And I think, uh, Oz Saylor said, I really wanted to peek through the blackout curtains, just see. I've never been to South America before. I wanted to see it, but, uh, I think they were, The fear was that Venezuelans who are no great fans of Americans, uh, would pick on team USA as a target and shoot at the bus or something, you know, it was a little crazy 

[00:15:28] Mark Corbett: as well.

[00:15:28] Mark Corbett: It can be a little crazy period. You know, years ago with the Tampa Bay rays, we had a catch up by the name of Wilson Ramos, and he had actually been kidnapped. In Venezuela and held for money and yeah, it's Venezuela can be rough on a good day, uh, from my understanding. So that was, that was pretty wild.

[00:15:48] Mark Corbett: And, you know, you mentioned, uh, sailors and. I remember when they were trying to decide whether or not they were going to stay and you talk about, well, I think she's only like 17 years old and this, this woman, she loves the game. I mean, she, she is passionate. There's no doubt that somebody like that would, would build the talent to be there.

[00:16:09] Mark Corbett: And I don't have it immediately in front of me, but I'm going to ask you to read that. Yeah. 

[00:16:14] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Right. 

[00:16:19] Dr. Jennifer Ring: This is when the players who were locked down knew that, um, the tournament might be cancelled and were crushed. And they had all spent years trying to make the team.

[00:16:29] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And they made the team and now they were one day into this tournament. And it's, it's on hold because somebody's gotten shot. And so they were, you know, of different minds. They're kids. Some of the, the oldest woman was in her late thirties. And some of these are teenagers. And, um, So yeah, Gazella Sailors was more worried about going home than being shot.

[00:16:54] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And what she says, she says, the first thing in my mind was, Oh, no, no, no, they're not going to call off the tournament, are they? Well, we all thought we were going home. Security guards said, if we don't get a good explanation from these people, meaning Venezuelans, we're going to go home. And I thought, says Oz, Are you kidding me?

[00:17:14] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Do you know how hard I worked for this? Do you know how long I worked for this? You're gonna send us home after one game? Really? And she then declared that she would prefer to stay and risk being shot than miss the rest of the tournament She said if i'm gonna die, I don't want to die like an old lady in a hospital bed.

[00:17:32] Dr. Jennifer Ring: I'm gonna die doing what I love Tamara holmes who was I think 36 at the time She said I remember I was saying well if I have to die at least i'll be playing baseball and i'm looking at her like Later for you. I'm not gonna get shot over this shit There you have it. Oh, 

[00:17:53] Mark Corbett: gosh, I love it. I mean, this, this was such a gathering of so many types of women.

[00:17:59] Mark Corbett: And while we're talking about a very serious situation, these women came together with it. And they, they still even had a sense of humor in the dark moments. I remember, uh, I guess the coach has asked the, the, the women, what they want to decide. And I believe it's Malaika. She's, she's talking to them, all that.

[00:18:17] Mark Corbett: And she's 

[00:18:18] Dr. Jennifer Ring: the kind of team captain. She was the chosen representative 

[00:18:22] Mark Corbett: to tell us that. So what happened? Cause they're, they're saying, okay, you guys are going to decide the coaches leave the room. It's just a captain and her team. 

[00:18:29] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And they're all, they're all talking and they had some serious conversations because, you know, if you think about the issue, you've got 20 ballplayers there.

[00:18:36] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And if some of them, you know, they were trying to figure out. What if some of us want to go home because they're afraid to take the field again? Or, you know, do we let them or does this have to be a unanimous decision? Because what if some people go home and then we don't have enough left to actually field a team?

[00:18:55] Dr. Jennifer Ring: So they had spent a long time trying to figure out what the fair thing was. And in the end, they decided unanimously that they wanted to stay, even the players who were a little, you know, fearful, didn't want to be the ones that disrupted the team and ruined it for everybody. So they came together and they decided unanimously that they wanted to stay and coaches come back in the room and ask Malaika as the spokeswoman, you know, but what did you guys decide?

[00:19:23] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And Malaika with a straight face looks at them and says, And we decided we want to go home. And the coaches were like shocked, didn't know what, what to do with that. And while they're sitting there going, Oh, okay. If that, then the girls burst into laughter and said, no, no, no, we're staying. 

[00:19:45] Mark Corbett: Wow. I mean, that was active commitment and, you know, talk about something to solidify as a team.

[00:19:51] Mark Corbett: You don't want something as dramatic as that, but it certainly sounded like that was part of it. And you're talking about the age differential, and I look at these women that have come together, and it amazes me, you know, what they were able to do. I'm going to tell folks, you want to know more about that game, get the book and read it because it is an exciting season for those women.

[00:20:11] Mark Corbett: But I want to go jump much deeper into the book. And chapter 15, you're talking about America's team. And what I like about this is you give me, uh, at the bottom of that first page, you're talking about who this seems comprised of, and it's not vanilla. It's not just a rubber stamp of one type of player, one type of person.

[00:20:36] Mark Corbett: It is, you want diversity and look for it in a workplace. This is what you would be looking for. Go ahead and read that part. If you would, 

[00:20:45] Dr. Jennifer Ring: this is like America's ideal team. This team is diverse racially, ethnically, religiously, and politically. It comprises one African American, Tamara Holmes, one mixed race African American, Malaika Underwood, one Cuban American, Veronica Alvarez.

[00:21:03] Dr. Jennifer Ring: This is funny. One Italian Irish American, that's Donna Mills, one Italian Puerto Rican American, Marti Simentelli, one Australian American, Tara Harbert. One partly Mexican American, Sarah Gascon, one Mormon, Jenny Dalton Hill, one Jew, Lily Jacobson, four Catholics, Mills, Gascon, Alvarez, and Sementelli, two devout Christians, Jenna Marston and Maggie Meidlinger, and some not so devout Christians, a couple of Bay Area liberals, one Southern California conservative.

[00:21:40] Dr. Jennifer Ring: A few who don't talk about politics at all, some straight women, some lesbians, a Cardinals fan, couple of A's fan, couple of Dodgers fans, couple of Red Sox fans, a Rockies fan, a Braves fan, a Marlins fan, I didn't even realize this, and an Orioles fan. The only major difference between this team and the iconic American hometown baseball team is that this team is all girls, the crowning touch of diversity and in baseball that nobody ever thinks about.

[00:22:11] Mark Corbett: Oh, I love this. Yeah, this, this, this is the world, you know, I think, well, look across all the differences here. I think the biggest challenge might be who their allegiances are to some of the other MLB teams, you know, whether or not a Dodgers fan and a Red Sox fan, and, uh, Well, I, I don't know, I'll say Dodgers or Rockies, but any, any group, uh, Red Sox and Orioles, because they're in the same division, you know, that could have been, that could have been real hell right there.

[00:22:40] Mark Corbett: That sounds like a great group of women and they've achieved so much. And like I said, you're looking back here into the 2010 and here we are 2024, the tournaments coming up here in a few days. Uh, I found interesting too, when I'm looking here, Jenny, and you're talking about, uh, Talking about the management of this team, because we were saying at the very beginning how difficult it could be for a manager who's, who's bringing a team together and they just have a very limited amount of time together to do that.

[00:23:16] Mark Corbett: But these women have worked with and played with one another more so than maybe the coaches had had the opportunity to be with them back in 2010. I know you talk about when, um, the players on the field may have had a better sense of Of how to play than the coaches did, let's say like the Japanese team and who were basically drawing in the, the, the players, the outfielders and everything else, coaches are bringing them in.

[00:23:45] Mark Corbett: And meanwhile, because the Japanese have been playing it in short, they've been maybe some bunts and some other things. And of course they adapted. And I remember reading something with Tamara's, you remember what Tamara, her mindset. 

[00:23:57] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I, uh, I can find that page too, but I can tell you what happened.

[00:24:04] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Um, 

[00:24:05] Mark Corbett: yeah, go ahead and just share that. What would you remember about that? 

[00:24:08] Dr. Jennifer Ring: They were playing the first game they played in that series was against Japan. Now, Japan is, On the one hand, you want to say that the, the Americans and the Canadians are just arch rivals. They won't even look at each other when they were on the same elevator in the hotel, that there would be silence.

[00:24:26] Dr. Jennifer Ring: So, you know, that's kind of a blood feud. But the Japanese have proven unbeatable to the Americans. They did, they did win once in 2006. My daughter was on that team and, and Tamara Holmes, uh, hit, hit the winning. RBI. She won, won the tournament. Um, but since then, and that was a little bit of a fluky game, since then they have not been able to beat Japan.

[00:24:55] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And the reason is obvious. Japan plays with women's, girls grow up playing baseball in Japan. They have, High school baseball, it's a sport. There is no softball in Japan to speak of, and Japan's a baseball loving country. So they are really good, and they play small ball, and they play smart. And, you know, that's, the women on Team USA and the coaches, I mean, they, in a sense, they don't, they aren't together long enough to develop that kind of intricate soft, small ball.

[00:25:30] Dr. Jennifer Ring: strategy. So the coaches of that 2010 tournament knew that Japan plays small ball and that they'll bunt and they'll beat out a bunt and they'll move, uh, you know, move the base runner over and it's all that kind of intricate inside baseball stuff. So the coaches had the outfielders play in real short and Japan loaded the bases and Tamara was sitting there in left field Going, I'm playing too short and the coaches are saying, no, no, you got to play in.

[00:26:03] Dr. Jennifer Ring: That's what Japan does. But Japan knows that, and Tamara knew it too, that when you've got the bases loaded, you can't play short because if somebody hits the ball over your head, all the runs score. But if you play At a regular outfield distance, and the ball is hit in front of you, you got a chance at least, maybe they'll score one, as Tamara said, you got to give up the one, but you're going to cut the rest of the runners off.

[00:26:29] Dr. Jennifer Ring: So, but she did what the coaches told her to do, which was to play short, all the outfielders were pulled in, and of course Japan just hit the ball right over her head. You know, it wasn't a home run blast, it was just a, Here's, here's the left fielder, let's hit it over her head, and Tamara has to go chase the ball, and the Japanese are scoring runs.

[00:26:50] Dr. Jennifer Ring: So, you know, I mean, that's, that's the kind of stuff that I hope, you know, right now, they've, I, at the end of my book, I, I kind of, I say, and I'm not sure, I know USA Baseball is not real happy with me being critical, uh, of, of the system, but, um, I said you need to get a veteran, you need to get a woman coaching this team, pitching the team.

[00:27:17] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Someone who really knows what playing on Team USA is about, and they've got it now. They've got it in, in Veronica Alvarez, and they've been making use also of Tamara and Malaika, the, you know, the real seniors, um, in the developmental tournaments. So I don't think Veronica would make that same mistake. She has played and lost against Japan for years.

[00:27:41] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And, uh, you know, she'd probably know that Japan is smart enough to know that if you've got the bases loaded and the infield in you, what you need to do is get the ball. On the other side of that fielder. 

[00:27:54] Mark Corbett: I love the whole idea we were talking about first earlier, but we're not even the whole first, that doesn't matter.

[00:28:01] Mark Corbett: What mattered in this particular case is having someone with the, the mindset, the experience, and the ability to the history, to see, to see, to see. How other teams play and how their own players are. And because those other coaches were just kind of brought in at the last minute, in some ways, I felt like, Hey, Hey, you're here, guys.

[00:28:19] Mark Corbett: Here's your team figure it out. Oh, and you haven't had a chance to see these other teams. Don't have any scouting reports. Figure it out. And I think that was, I know I'm being flipped here, but when I read it, I kind 

[00:28:31] Dr. Jennifer Ring: You'll be flip because I always get in trouble. So you'd say it, 

[00:28:37] Mark Corbett: but, but that's the sense I had.

[00:28:38] Mark Corbett: And, and I, I truly believe, you know, with the women that are at the helm now, women with experience, it's going to make a difference. I'm excited about this year. Uh, I'm excited about seeing all the new young talent coming up. Uh, I, you know, as much as I make criticism, I want to give again, a kudos to MLB develops in USA baseball, because it's seeing These young, young women, either the elite training, uh, things they did, I didn't make it down there for that, but I did see the trailblazer series and there isn't energy there.

[00:29:08] Mark Corbett: I mean, we're with these young girls don't have to look to, to the all Americans who are the few that we still have with us as role models. They have living, breathing women who are making a difference right now. Jenny, I've said this time again, I beat my chest about, Oh, you know, I want to see division one baseball for women.

[00:29:28] Mark Corbett: I want to see a pro league and all that. And, and I think those things might come. I, I, I, I'll get on my high horse again here. Cause I, the whole idea. Of seeing a 12 year old child and you can say, here's a softball. Here's a baseball. You can no longer have the baseball. Would you like this softball? And oh, by the way, if you're looking for a college education later on in life, this softball will help you achieve that, but the baseball will not.

[00:29:57] Mark Corbett: And that needs to change. We'll see. We'll see. 

[00:30:01] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Bye, Mark. I'm so proud of you. I'm gratified to hear you say that, because it's, you know, a man named Jim Glennie, who I've written about, who was very involved in developing the, um, Women's National Team in the very early years before USA Baseball, took it over and, you know, used their resources to pump it up to, to what it is now, which is, Not, not enough.

[00:30:28] Dr. Jennifer Ring: It's never enough, but it's better than having no money and no sponsorship. But, um, but Jim Blenny said in order to develop baseball for girls and women, you need a beautiful shining object to aim for, which is the gold medal wearing the USA baseball team uniform. And you also need available grassroots support.

[00:30:54] Dr. Jennifer Ring: You need, um, little girls playing baseball. You need, just like the boys who are, who get so good by the time they're teenagers, they play all the time. They play months out of every year and years out of their young lives. And so you need to grow the grassroots baseball for girls. And then you also need USA Baseball and MLB.

[00:31:19] Dr. Jennifer Ring: To say, here's where you can get to. And, you know, I think both of those things are necessary if, if we're going to see. Things really change. 

[00:31:27] Mark Corbett: Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Let's see here. I want to check some real quick while I'm thinking about it. Uh, Olympics, 2032, it's going to be in Brisbane. You know, each, what I remember Jenny is that each, um, each Olympic.

[00:31:44] Mark Corbett: Event, I should say a location has the ability to bring in a new event and then they can say, okay, yes, we want pickleball to be the new sports that we're going to have Olympic sports for now. I don't think we'll be able to get anything for obviously this, maybe not 2028, but it would be interesting to see if by 2032.

[00:32:07] Mark Corbett: There'd be enough lead time for them to say, let's have women's baseball in the Olympics. And that could be go toward that gold medal that you're talking about. Um, the gold medal, I was glad to display when I show on with Tamara and I put up social media was that Pan Am game and she held up that medal.

[00:32:27] Mark Corbett: I say, yes, that's right. Yes. You know, that's, that's the sort of thing. And it makes a difference. 

[00:32:33] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Mark, that's an absolutely brilliant idea. Yeah. Totally support you in that. I hope that can happen. 

[00:32:39] Mark Corbett: Well, I think he can. I'm starting to see things, um, people do in roads, even like, uh, Sousa paid with the all American.

[00:32:47] Mark Corbett: She, that tournament, we were talking a little bit about the all American girls baseball tournament with had, uh, this past November and Sue was putting like all of her, she was funding all of it. Okay. We'll just say that. And she was putting it out down there at the Sarasota with the, uh, spring training stadium that the Orioles have.

[00:33:08] Mark Corbett: But It was her now this year, I understand. And I don't have this with a stamp on it saying, yes, it's absolutely true. But my understanding is that there is a sponsor, somebody with the Durham bulls who has, I believe, young ladies in his family who enjoy the game. And they're going to hold that tournament again, this time in Durham.

[00:33:32] Mark Corbett: And a lot of the costs I think Sue had probably incurred will be also covered too by some of that. And there will probably be more media coverage to nationally. So I'm looking forward to that. Uh, I guess I better get my plane tickets for Durham around Thanksgiving because it sounds like that could be really a new start.

[00:33:51] Mark Corbett: That 

[00:33:52] Dr. Jennifer Ring: sounds great. Yeah. 

[00:33:55] Mark Corbett: Well just take a look. I've, I've gone on and on for a bit, so forgive me. But, uh, let, let's, let's talk about the fun part. Let's talk about Lily and your grandchildren in a game today. What's, how's, what's going on there? 

[00:34:08] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Lily, uh, retired. Actually, you know, she was injured. She, she made that 2010 team.

[00:34:18] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And in the scrimmage, before they were to leave, she, uh, she was on first with a lead off. She was a base stealer and a fast, fast kid. So she's taking her lead off first. And the guy who was coaching the other team in the scrimmage said, you know, pick her off, pick her off. And Lily heard it, of course, he said it out loud.

[00:34:42] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And she dove back into first base and the pitcher threw the ball over. And Lily made the. You know, beat the, beat the throw, but she jammed her hand in the base as she dove in and just fractured her, her finger. It was a, or I don't know what, her finger, her hand, it was a spiral fracture. Uh, we had to fly her home and get surgery and that was the end of that tournament for her.

[00:35:11] Dr. Jennifer Ring: I should say I, I only mentioned that because that, you know, that was kind of it. She just, uh, really withdrew from baseball after that, but now they give major league baseball players, those oven mitts to wear when they're running on the bases so that the same thing wouldn't happen to a major leaguer.

[00:35:30] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And I was thinking only she had that, but, um, she's happy. She had played enough. I think she played. a little bit longer than she wanted to, um, because she thought it was pleasing me, which it was, but you know, as a parent, you've got to let the kid. Do what they want to do. So she, uh, hasn't played baseball for a while, and she, um, has a great career as an urban planner, and she actually teaches, uh, urban planning at a high school in Oakland, and, um, she's married.

[00:36:04] Dr. Jennifer Ring: She has a one year old baby daughter. Little Maya, who, um, I was telling you just yesterday, Lily brought her to an A's game, and there was, there's my little granddaughter in an A's cap, and I'm going to be, all right, is this going to start again? And I know Lily is not going to push her to play baseball.

[00:36:24] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And Maya will choose her own sport, and, uh, And yeah, then I, I have, uh, two little grandsons, uh, who live in Boston and, uh, the older one who's six years old, uh, just had his first season of Little League Baseball. And, uh, I got invited out to one of the games, and, uh, I want to say my grandson knows how to swing a bat.

[00:36:49] Dr. Jennifer Ring: He's got a good, smooth, natural swing, too. So, I got to keep my mouth shut. I mean, both my daughters have said, Mom, you stay out of this. And, uh, you know, well, it tickles me. It just thrills me to watch the little ones playing again. Um, You know, it's tough. I, I am given the real struggles that girls go through, all of them, the ones who make it, the ones who are on Team USA, the ones who've been, you know, as I say in my book, there's, there's kind of two approaches.

[00:37:25] Dr. Jennifer Ring: One is, to switch to softball and the other is to keep playing baseball. And if you keep playing baseball, you're going to be the only girl and on, on whatever team you're on, but you're probably going to learn more about baseball than the softball players will. And so it's a, it's a tough choice. And I think sometimes of, okay, I've got a six year old grandson and a one year old granddaughter.

[00:37:48] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And what would I want for them, even though I am obeying both daughters and not saying anything out loud, but I'm not, I know I wouldn't push my little granddaughter to play baseball unless she really wanted it as badly as her mother did. Um, you know, it's, it's a, it's a tough road and I really wish it weren't, you know, that's what you and I've been talking about is, is, uh, you know, I wish it were just normal that, yeah, of course, you're going to play baseball and like in Canada and, and Australia and, um, Japan, well, I, yeah, Japan, the girls play, but I think in Canada they can choose, do they want to play in a boy's team or do they want to play on a girl's team?

[00:38:31] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And, uh, to me, that's what I'd like to see so that there really is a choice. You want to play baseball, you go get it, girl, you know, it's there for you. 

[00:38:40] Mark Corbett: I love it. Oh man. Well, thank you for sharing so much of that with us too, Jenny. I do want to pause and, uh, note the passing of Oz sailors and this, this woman, my gosh, I mean, he talked about her passion back in the 2010, uh, games and I've got to meet her last year in November.

[00:39:03] Mark Corbett: At the, the tournament with the all girls baseball and met this where I met Tamara and some of the other ones as well. But I got to tell you what, she had a smile that just grabs you. You know, she, she had a spirit and a bubbly nature that just made you want to be there and listen all night. You know, it was, it was great.

[00:39:22] Mark Corbett: And I was saddened and surprised when I'd heard how things had gone that she's no longer with us. But she is a woman. I feel like found her passion and lived it. You know, she was, while she was a player, she was also a coach and she was somebody who was helping players develop. And for that, I think, well, isn't that something there's so many times people haven't decided there's something in their life.

[00:39:46] Mark Corbett: It's important to them and supporting that they can give to others. And I, I feel like Oz, you know, here I am off on the sidelines saying this, I felt like she found that and she was doing that and, uh, God bless her and her family, but thank her too, for all that she gave us. 

[00:40:02] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Definitely. That I, I just learned of her passing, uh, just this past week and was just shocked as, you know, anybody would be with, you know, a young person, um, getting struck down by disease, which I gather.

[00:40:17] Dr. Jennifer Ring: This is what happened. Um, but she sure was, she lit up the world with her love of baseball. I mean, to see her on a field and, and yes, to, to see her dedication to bringing the next generation along and to playing the game. Yeah, that's, it's, it's love of the game, has to be. You know, when you talked to Tamara Holmes and the interview you did with her, I was laughing when I heard her say, you know, you're going well, you're a role model and you're helping other young women and isn't that great and everything.

[00:40:52] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Tamara said, no, I just like to play baseball. 

[00:40:56] Mark Corbett: I love her. She's, she's fantastic, man. I've got to get her back on. She's great. She's great. Yeah, that's it. It's the love of the game. That's nice. Those other things happen, but Hey, I just love baseball. Oh my Jenny. Thank you so much for being here today. A BaseballBiz On Deck.

[00:41:13] Mark Corbett: Is there anything else you'd like to cover? Something you think we should talk about? 

[00:41:17] Dr. Jennifer Ring: No, you really brought me out of myself. I've, I've been, uh, you know, not as engaged in the game as, uh, you know, of recent years. And, you know, even though I love watching the next generation of my family pick up a little glove and a bat, um, I haven't really, you know, Kept up with the women's team the way that You're bringing me back.

[00:41:41] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Uh, so I I appreciate you're inviting me. Thank you jimmy, and i'm i'm I'm, i'm happy. I I love doing this interview with you and I thought oh baseball now. What was that? 

[00:41:55] Mark Corbett: I want to thank you again, Dr. Jennifer Ringman joins here today on BaseballBiz On Deck. And while we kind of talked a little bit about a game of their own voices of contemporary women at baseball, which I loved reading, I also couldn't help it, wait and run out and pick up the book stolen bases, because it gives you a sense of the history of women in baseball and why.

[00:42:16] Mark Corbett: A bit of why the things are the way they are. Jenny, can you want to say a little more about that? 

[00:42:21] Dr. Jennifer Ring: The one hand I'm delighted that you wanted to talk about a game of their own because that's, that's where the stories are. And, and you've really brought that out of me. Um, a book that I wrote about five years before, uh, is called stolen bases.

[00:42:35] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Why American girls don't play baseball. Um, it's published by the university of Illinois press in 2009, I think, and it's more of a history of women in baseball and, um, what, it's actually been assigned in a lot of, uh, sports sociology classrooms, um, because it goes all the way back to the 15th century, and people don't realize that girls probably invented baseball, the game of baseball.

[00:43:05] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Um, it was, uh, likely invented by English milkmaids in the 15th century, but they called it stool ball, and they put stools in a circle while they're waiting in between milkings and they got a stick and a rock and they Pitched and they hit and they threw each other out by throwing the rock at the bass runner and you know Really feminine little game there And and So that what my book, Stolen Bases, does is go all the way back to the kind of forgotten and buried history about women in baseball, and it's a way of raising the question that you and I talked about, um, in this last, uh, hour about why we have to keep repeating the first woman to do this, the first woman to do that, when they've been doing it all along for centuries, you know, why does that history get buried?

[00:43:58] Dr. Jennifer Ring: And so that's what Stolen Bases is about. Uh, discusses. 

[00:44:03] Mark Corbett: Well, thank you. It is. Like I said, I've had a chance just to crack that one open. I'm still getting started with it and I, with your permission, I'll reach out to it again because I'd like to maybe talk about that book sometime in the future as well.

[00:44:14] Mark Corbett: I would love to. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you again. That's a Dr. Jennifer Ring and glad to have here today. We'll put up on the show notes about those books and links to where you can purchase that, purchase them as well. So thanks again, Dr. Ring for being here today and look forward to talking with you again real soon.

[00:44:32] Dr. Jennifer Ring: Thank you so much, Mark. 

[00:44:34] Mark Corbett: We hope you enjoyed today's episode of BaseballBiz On Deck. If so, please go ahead and leave us a five star review. You can do that on iTunes, Apple, Spotify, our radio, anywhere you go, including BaseballBiz On Deck. com. Special. Thanks to XTaKeRuX for the music “Rocking Forward.”       

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