Womens Baseball Heritage Trail with Ryan Woodward of IWBC

Womens Baseball Heritage Trail with Ryan Woodward of the IWBC
 284 BaseballBiz On Deck

[00:00:00] Mark Corbett: Welcome to BaseballBiz On Deck. I am Mark Corbett, your host, and with me today I have Mr. Ryan Woodward, a fellow Kentuckian, also a gentleman not only loves the game of baseball, but has done so much as far as promoting the game with women. He's also project coordinator with the international Women's Baseball Center. Oh. 'cause I know you guys do so much with the history of the game and yet still, , bringing the game to a lot of young people too. , so before, I really do wanna talk about the women's heritage, , baseball Heritage Trail.

[00:00:35] Mark Corbett: But before we could do that, I'd like to hear a little bit about what you guys are doing. I've, I looked on your website as far as upcoming events 

[00:00:42] Ryan Woodward: We are forever on the verge of announcing big deal events. But as you know, with a lot of things, a lot of times they just kind of happen.

[00:00:51] Ryan Woodward: You get very short notice. How about if we do this? And you're like, okay, we gotta do it. So, um, what we normally do, you know, education's like at the foundation of everything that we do, so that's Really what we focus on, we do a lot of, our big goal, of course, is we are building a museum here in Rockford, Illinois.

[00:01:13] Ryan Woodward: Um, just to tell really the whole worldwide history of women in baseball. You know, we have a lot of people are. So focused and rightfully so on, you know, what they've learned from a league of their own and then celebrating the women's pro league in the forties and the fifties. But the story, starting decades before that and it has continued decades since that league, and that's what we try to celebrate.

[00:01:35] Ryan Woodward: I. At IWBC every day. We do this a number of different ways. Um, we host a lot of virtual events. , we have a virtual conference in September every year, which is really great. It's really the only conference of its kind that's co-sponsored with SABR, , for women in baseball. And, other than that, it's hosting events.

[00:01:55] Ryan Woodward: We. Hosted the US Women's National Team in August of 2023. So that's coming up on two years since that, which seems like it was just a couple of weeks ago, honestly. , and this was right after I moved here and started this t . So like that was a nice, uh. You know, like baptism by fire of, oh hey, the national team's coming in like three weeks after you started and we gotta host this major event.

[00:02:21] Ryan Woodward: It was huge though. We had thousands of people out at Beyer Stadium where the Peaches played. the national team was on their way to Canada for the World Cup, , group stage that year. That was a very cool intro to what we do here For me. And then from that it's only spurred more interest in international teams coming to Rockford.

[00:02:44] Ryan Woodward: , people love this stadium here, you know, historically significant. So the more events we can create, um, we're gonna do that. So that's, that's kind of a, a long answer that probably doesn't answer it at all, but it's, , we do a lot of different things here and, . Yeah, it's never, never boring. I can say that.

[00:03:05] Mark Corbett: Well it speaks to the versatility of what, , the international women's, , baseball center is doing. And not only just looking at history of the game with the All Americans, with the Rockford Peaches and , the stadium but the old looking to the future 'cause of those classes and such, and the people that you're bringing in.

[00:03:22] Mark Corbett: I feel like you guys are nurturing the future in a way. 

[00:03:25] Ryan Woodward: No, I don't disagree with that. You know, we hosted the, uh, baseball for All Nationals tournament, um, Justine Siegel's program here in Rockford, 2017 through 2019. And, um, that's a big deal. And every year, you know, you're breaking records for the number of participants.

[00:03:41] Ryan Woodward: It's 400 girls one year. It's 500 girls the next year. And that's, uh, that's no. Small thing to have 500 girls playing baseball, you know, within like a four day period. 

[00:03:54] Mark Corbett: Yeah. Managing that would, that sounds like quite the task in and of itself. I. 

[00:03:59] Ryan Woodward: It's pretty exciting. 

[00:04:02] Mark Corbett: Well, I, I've love to talk more about that, but I did, the one main reason I wanted to have you here is to talk about a project you've been working with, and that is the Women's Baseball Heritage Trail.

[00:04:16] Mark Corbett: And to me, I love that because wow. There are books out there for all kinds to read and, and you got an initiative on that. I know as well about women in baseball. You give us a roadmap of where we can go to see the history of the game. And I know, I think one of the first conversations I had with you is I was working at the Tampa Baseball Museum and talk about a display we had.

[00:04:41] Mark Corbett: On Shu Shu Worth, and then I, I started hearing more and more from you and what you were doing. I saw this, this Heritage trail and Wow. How many entries do you have on the, on the Heritage Trail now? 

[00:04:53] Ryan Woodward: You know, I. Never remember for sure. We have about 460 identified spots on there. Right? And it's probably about 430 that are actually on the map.

[00:05:04] Ryan Woodward: A lot of it's just verifying. And then when I have time to go in and make sure, you know, my coordinates are right and I'm in the right place, um, it takes a while to get a spot on the map. Of course, you know, I eat it up. I love it. Um, take as long as it take. I can stay up all night working on this at times.

[00:05:22] Ryan Woodward: Then you get busy, you know, you have real jobs. And real responsibilities that get in the way. But, um, it's been a fun project and yeah, I remember us talking about, , Tampa, um, being on there and it is on the trail because that's a place to engage with women's baseball history. So that's, it's full of things like that.

[00:05:42] Mark Corbett: If I'm going to find this, I know what it's on. If I go to, is it on the Women's In Baseball Week website or is it its own? It's, 

[00:05:49] Ryan Woodward: yeah, so that is a website we created for Women in Baseball Week, which is a project, um, we started in 2017 and this is really just a week long celebration of women in baseball.

[00:06:02] Ryan Woodward: Whatever that looks like to you. You know a lot of. Teams they fundraise off of it or they get, , new players out of it. They've created tournaments around it, but it's a chance to. Bring, , baseball kind of off the field actually in a way for, you know, where else can you find women's baseball, , that's not on the playing field.

[00:06:21] Ryan Woodward: So there's a lot of participation with museums, libraries, archives, that sort of thing. And it's, it's kind of just a free for all, whatever anybody wants to do with it. So we made a website for that a couple of years ago, and then once we started the, , heritage Trail, . This is the perfect place to, to stick that, um, feature.

[00:06:40] Ryan Woodward: So yeah, you can find it at women in baseball week.org or just https://wbht.org/ for women's baseball heritage trail.org. We got a nice short link for that. Um, get you there a lot quicker than having to type that whole thing in. 

[00:06:54] Mark Corbett: We'll make sure we put that in the notes too. So be folks will be able to, to find that.

[00:06:58] Mark Corbett: But I, I was fascinated to see how many places that you do have on the map and. So I brought it up. I thought, okay, if I'm gonna go from here to Ohio, from Tampa to to uh, up there with you guys, I thought, what are the stops? I could, I would see, and it, it is amazing. 'cause basically you're, you, you're giving a map.

[00:07:18] Mark Corbett: Of the part of the country where you might be traveling. And then you have the sites that you can select one by one to see, you know, if it's something of interest to you or just to, to know what's going on there. So, let's see from here. Um, I'm trying to see. We've got, I was like, stops in Daytona Beach, I believe.

[00:07:35] Mark Corbett: , stops, uh oh, I love this too, because not only, you don't ha give just necessarily the city you actually give coordinates. A lot, I guess longitude and latitude here, don't you? 

[00:07:47] Ryan Woodward: Um, for some of 'em. Most of 'em, yeah. 

[00:07:50] Mark Corbett: Yeah. So I mean, I'm looking at, if I'm heading up north through Florida, I see Mary Wisham Park, uh, I see in Daytona.

[00:07:57] Mark Corbett: I see Rachel Robinson, marker at Jackie Robinson. Ballpark, you know, if I head over to Tallahassee, there's a state library and Archives of Florida, you know, with some things about the All Americans as well, but. All through my trip north, I would find many of these different locations. So I think it's pretty cool if you, if you've been on school break or if you haven't yet, you know, this is, I think, a good place to start if find some, , history for your family along the way.

[00:08:25] Ryan Woodward: Absolutely. , that's kind of where it came from. Just like Women in Baseball Week. , we started that when I was finishing library school, actually at the University of Pittsburgh. And I was just looking for a project to do and this, um, women in Baseball Week seemed like a, a very easy thing for people, a lot of people to participate in because it was mostly a social media like awareness type of thing.

[00:08:49] Ryan Woodward: If you play baseball, like. About it, you know, share your story type of thing. 

[00:08:53] Ryan Woodward: Because I'm coming outta library school, you know, some things are important to me, like access to information, you know, preservation of history, this idea of lifelong learning. And actually, um, I. I had talked with Leslie Heaphy for years, like years ago about, wouldn't it?

[00:09:13] Ryan Woodward: It's just this vague idea of wouldn't it be cool to just have a list of every ballpark named after a woman? How many can there be? I. Who knows. Nobody knows, you know? So start keeping lists like that, and then you get into, wouldn't it be cool if there were a map to like show you where historic sites were?

[00:09:33] Ryan Woodward: And that's, that's nothing new. You know, mapping projects are nothing new. Historical markers are nothing new. But it's this idea of collecting all of those things within a very specific kind of criteria. And that criteria is just how is this related to women's baseball and, uh, putting 'em in one spot. Um.

[00:09:51] Ryan Woodward: I think there are just people like us, there's a lot of them who go to library school who just like, they like making lists, they like order to, things like that. They like collecting things. And this is, this is a collection project, so, um, yeah, it's. It's been like the most nerd fun I've had ever setting up this whole trail.

[00:10:14] Ryan Woodward: And it's, it's a pretty basic, it's a WordPress website, you know, it's got a Google Map plug into it. Um, it's not fancy. I've had help with that because I'm not the most amazing with technology. But what I am amazing at is, again, staying up. All hours of the night going down rabbit holes of just, I never knew this, of finding new things.

[00:10:34] Ryan Woodward: Is this worthy of going on the map? Yes, it is. If I wanna know about it, probably somebody else wants to know about it. So next thing you know, you have hundreds of spots on your map. 

[00:10:44] Mark Corbett: You're interested in somebody else who's interested women in baseball, they're more, more likely to be interested in it too, and.

[00:10:51] Mark Corbett: But let me bring that back to something personal. How did, what was the bug that first got you interested in, women's baseball? When was the first interest in that? I. 

[00:11:01] Ryan Woodward: It's, it's really weird to pin down. The easy answer is a league of their own. Um, you know, most of that was filmed in southern Indiana in 1991, and I was living about 30 miles away from most of the filming locations and western Kentucky.

[00:11:17] Ryan Woodward: So this was a big deal when Hollywood would come to Kentucky, Indiana to film a movie, you know, especially 30 years ago. , but before that was. Just a fascination with World War ii. I don't know where it came from. I've been into it since I was eight, nine years old. Just the enormity of it. . How many, you know, world changing events occurred, you know, in a, in a short amount of time.

[00:11:41] Ryan Woodward: I wasn't really into sports as a kid, but I liked baseball. But you combine baseball with this incredible story coming out of World War II plus World War ii, and then I was. Kind of hooked and you start reading books. There weren't a lot of them at the time. You know, a lot of those books that talk about the Women's League or any women's baseball history are coming out in like 93, 94.

[00:12:03] Ryan Woodward: And, um, go to the libraries, look at that full circle. Use the, the kid at the library. , checking out, you know, repeatedly the, you know, two books that were on the subject and just reading them over and over again and just hooked and learning that, learning more about Negro League history, , a lot of the things you just didn't hear about, you weren't taught about.

[00:12:24] Ryan Woodward: , and then that leads to, you know, just wanting to, how do you preserve that? How do you share that with people going forward in new ways? Um, of course, you know, in 1993, we wouldn't have thought of probably a. Map on the internet to look up women's baseball sites. So, um, just right time, you know, it's right evolution for all of this.

[00:12:46] Ryan Woodward: Um, once we started though, it just, I envision more of just a resource for users and you can file this under. Kind of creating the things that you want to see in the world if you don't see them out there. Yeah. Um, then I guess you have to do it yourself. And that's, that's kind of where this was. Um, I think this is a good tool for a wide range of users, whether it's students or.

[00:13:09] Ryan Woodward: Researchers or just the, the casual baseball fan. And this is where the timing comes in again, because we, um, I really laid into this, um, spring of 2022. Um, we're coming out of pandemic a little bit. Um, you know, it certainly wasn't over, but people were, I think, itching just to get outside again and go see stuff, but maybe at a safe distance and, you know, kind of on their own schedule with their own space.

[00:13:37] Ryan Woodward: So, um. Yeah, I started seeing a lot of comments of, well, I'm traveling, I'm going to Chicago. Is there anything to see in Chicago about women's baseball? You know, different Facebook groups are online and things like that, and it's like there should be something that tells people what they're looking for.

[00:13:56] Ryan Woodward: So it's one of those things like. You can argue that the idea of this happened a long time ago, but then it just all kind of fell into place and, oh, this is, this is an easy project to do to accomplish all of these goals. 

[00:14:10] Mark Corbett: Well, I think you hit it too. It's the, it is the timing of, of how things evolve. I. We could have had this great idea 30, 40 years ago, but when the technology kind of caught up with, with the concept and, and being able to actually implement it and, uh, I won't call it easy, but it's simplified with something like using WordPress and, and other folks is what to do some of this work.

[00:14:31] Mark Corbett: But it has given us the opportunity to, to share more. And, and you guys are doing a wonderful job with this on the, uh, women's. Baseball Heritage Trail. So thank you for that. I do wanna know, do you have a couple places on there that you said, I'm so glad I went there that you said, and if I had to tell somebody three places to go or, or even, what's your favorite, is there one favorite place?

[00:14:56] Ryan Woodward: Yeah, a lot of my favorites, I haven't actually been to, I haven't been to most of the, the sites. You know, when I started it out, um, I. I just started with a spreadsheet and I just started listing things I'd been to or that I knew of. So initially it was a lot of all American sites, you know, stadiums they played.

[00:15:17] Ryan Woodward: Um, again, I was living in Pittsburgh when I started this, and the League of their own TV series had filmed there, um, the year before. So instantly had, you know, just. A ton of spaces to add to it, which looks cool. So we launched it, you know, with I think 200 sites and that was gonna be good enough at that.

[00:15:37] Ryan Woodward: If that's all there were, you know, um, it's really uncharacteristic of me because, you know, I like finite projects and I don't have a lot of patience for things. When is this getting done? You know? 'cause I'm easily distracted or I'm onto the next thing and I just, you know, I wanna get a lot of things, um, out of the way.

[00:15:57] Ryan Woodward: But this was, you know, there were no set goals with it. It was, whatever it is, it's always as updated as it can be because. You know, we'll add things. There's always the possibility to add more. But, um, after that initial launch, um, just started thinking more broadly of content. And then you got to thinking things like grave sites.

[00:16:20] Ryan Woodward: And then you have women who played baseball, who incorporates baseball somehow on their grave markers. Right. Or their headstones. And it's like the idea came to me like. What if you were just randomly in one of these cemeteries and then you saw that, what does that logo mean? Why is, why does this woman have a baseball player, you know, on her thing that's gonna, you know, cause you to look into it, right?

[00:16:44] Ryan Woodward: And educate yourself. And how are cemeteries educational? Well, yes they are. So then you start looking to other things. Um, online only sites. How many halls of fame are just online? Um. It's a lot of content out there and we include that in the map even if there's not a physical location. I try to have it correspond with a physical location.

[00:17:07] Ryan Woodward: But, um, so much content and educational content is, you know, online only. Same with archives. , so much of museum and library archives especially or online. So there's just, there's a lot of ways to engage. With the trail. , to answer your question though, , I love finding out anything from Kentucky 'cause that's where I'm from, right.

[00:17:28] Ryan Woodward: And, there's a lot of limited opportunities probably there historically for women in sports as there are everywhere. But I. Then it's Kentucky, so, you know, it's hard to find things, but I've found, I think there's like seven or eight spots on Kentucky and I love it. And they are grave sites, they are historic markers.

[00:17:44] Ryan Woodward: They are fields named after women. And, um, it's very representative of what the, the larger trail looks like. Um. I love anything with Toni Stone. Yeah, I think Toni Stone is just an American treasure and hero and you'll find stuff from her, um, really all over the country, which is super cool. But lately it's anything I had never heard of before.

[00:18:08] Ryan Woodward: You know, again, these late night deep dives into, you know, you change your, this is getting very. Nerd librarian talk, but you know, you change your shirt, your search terms, when you're just looking up things, you know, what if instead of women in base, what if I said women and baseball and what if I said history marker instead of historical marker?

[00:18:30] Ryan Woodward: All kinds of new stuff comes up. So, um, one example is, her name is Nellie Twardzik, I hope I'm saying it right. Nellie Twardzik Thompson. And she was the first girl. As I understand it, to play baseball, varsity baseball in Massachusetts may be the first to play varsity baseball anywhere. this is 1935 in Massachusetts, and so she's inducted into the high school Hall of Fame.

[00:18:57] Ryan Woodward: There's a park named after her, and those are two spots that we have in Massachusetts and never had heard of her before. And what, what an impressive, valuable thing, and then to see that, and then if you're a, you know. It's not just for girls. You're, anybody, you know, can inspire anybody you see that, you see what she maybe had to overcome just to play baseball in 1935.

[00:19:22] Ryan Woodward: And, um, yeah, that's, that's gonna be some impact in your face, maybe in a different way than some of the other spots would do. , 

[00:19:33] Mark Corbett: I'm encouraged by all that you put together this, the time you put in, but also the, the places you were talking about. And you'd mentioned Toni Stone, and she's kind of a favorite of mine too, because I always think of how she came into baseball from, from my limited perspective, and I always think of the Indianapolis Clowns.

[00:19:52] Mark Corbett: I think that. The color barrier is being cracked open and Jackie Robinson make moves up. Hank Aaron from the Indianapolis Clowns moves up. There's a spot on the roster and next thing we know here comes Toni Stone with the Indianapolis Clowns and with recent history since the Negro Leagues are now part of Major League baseball records, does that make Toni Stone the first woman playing Major League Baseball?

[00:20:22] Ryan Woodward: You know, um, maybe people 

[00:20:25] Mark Corbett: maybe 

[00:20:25] Ryan Woodward: about that, you know, which stats they're including and things like that. , but I think even beyond that, she's just, she's an amazing inspirational figure, who deserves to be celebrated and however we can do it. It's interesting 'cause we're talking about favorite spots and then we bring up Toni Stone.

[00:20:43] Ryan Woodward: Um. There was an article I used as I presented on this at a conference last fall and the article was called something like, um, America Still Doesn't Put Enough Women On Pedestals. And the whole thing was just how we memorialize people, , in the country. And the, the statistic was something like only 6% of US monuments, , feature a real woman as its subject.

[00:21:10] Ryan Woodward: So out of every, you know, statue, Memorial Monument type of thing, only 6% of those were, , of real women. So it makes sense too, and it's kind of cool to see. When we started Heritage Trail, I think there were two statues. I. In the country, , that featured women in baseball. One was in Indianapolis. , the Clowns, , they have bust of Hank Aaron, Toni Stone and Mamie Johnson.

[00:21:37] Ryan Woodward: And then the, uh, statue that's outside the Hall of Fame of the All American swinging a bat. And now, just like three years later, um, they just unveiled one, I think of Mo'ne Davis. At the Louisville Slugger Museum, , there's a new one of Toni Stone in San Francisco and there's one of Gertrude Dunn outside of Philadelphia at the, um, I think it's the Delaware County Sports Hall of Fame.

[00:22:00] Ryan Woodward: Um, so there's just like three in like the past, whatever that is. Year maybe. Yeah, year and a half, which is pretty cool, but it's also new spots for the map, right? So this is another way this is gonna just keep growing and evolving, and I'm excited to see that. 

[00:22:18] Mark Corbett: I was surprised and AP appreciative to see Mo'ne Davis there at, at the Louisville Slugger Museum and they had a, a statue for her.

[00:22:27] Mark Corbett: I thought this young lady, there's still so much more that she's gonna wind up being able to do Ryan, but lo and behold, they're honoring her. You know? Now with that, I was like, yes, the more that we can show. I think especially a young woman and somebody who's not just historical, thank God we got the historical, but showing somebody right now who's achieving something, I think it opens a door for the, a lot of minds of, of maybe young girls who wouldn't think otherwise about playing baseball.

[00:22:52] Ryan Woodward: Right, right. It's the very, you know, see it, be it. Type of argument that we engage in every day. You know, I think I met Mo'ne Davis at my first IWBC event before I was ever involved with them. They had an event in Redding Pennsylvania and she was, she was there and this was probably the year after, you know, little League World Series and everything.

[00:23:15] Ryan Woodward: So she's, I don't know, she was like 15 or something. Yeah. But just like class Act, and I remember there were tournaments going on at this, . Complex that we were at, and just the number of like teenage boys who were lining up to get her autograph. , 'cause she's famous at that point, but it was still just a really cool thing to see.

[00:23:33] Mark Corbett: Yeah. I've heard from others too, even a couple years ago, they were talking about how mature she was and and handling situations and such. I was, I was glad to hear that. 'cause I, I always worry about some young players coming in and. Being stressed about it, but she seems to have a strength of character that will carry her far, so I'm glad to see that.

[00:23:52] Mark Corbett: Hey, I did want to ask you again, myself hailing from Kentucky as well. 

[00:23:57] Mark Corbett: . 

[00:23:57] Mark Corbett: There was a while back that you actually put a woman up for the Hall of Fame in Kentucky. Am I correct? 

[00:24:02] Ryan Woodward: Oh, that's right. Yeah. Anna May Hutchison 

[00:24:05] Mark Corbett: tell me about that.

[00:24:05] Ryan Woodward: So this was fun. Um, I think this was before we even, oh yeah, this was definitely before the, the idea of this trail came along and, but you know, ultimately she's gonna be one of the first people I put on the thing, but I was looking for, because there's, there's ongoing efforts to get more women into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, you know, and the criteria for that is very difficult.

[00:24:30] Ryan Woodward: , because a lot of women don't have the playing longevity to, you know. Even be qualified as a player. Um, there's just, there's a lot of rules for doing that. And so that just caused me to look at, well, what other halls of fame are women included in? So I started looking at Kentucky and one, there were very few baseball players.

[00:24:49] Ryan Woodward: , very few women, but certainly no women baseball players. So I started looking into this and how many women played from the All American League, for example, and it was, there's only four from Kentucky. Wow. Um. Originally, but by far, Anna May Hutchison had the longest career out of all of them. She played from 44 through 49, mostly for, uh, Racine Belles.

[00:25:15] Ryan Woodward: She did play her last season with, Muskegon Lassies, but she was recruited as a catcher. And it's kind of the backup catcher in her first season or two. And then with the All American League, you know, they transitioned from underhand pitching to overhand pitching eventually. But there were two years there where there was limited side arm and full side sidearm.

[00:25:39] Ryan Woodward: This is 1946 and 47, and she got discovered well. Already in the league pitching, batting practice, um, kind of a sidearm motion. And, um, the coach, like he noticed this, um, league president noticed this. A lot of people started noticing this, so they started sidearm pitching And just what's significant about her story is many people, um, when you're researching the league, you're reading about the league, you'll get.

[00:26:08] Ryan Woodward: A good, you know, list of 10, 15 players who are just considered the best of the best The all stars over its 12 year history. But I'm like, there were surely other people who were doing amazing things in that league, you know, who weren't just like the top 10 players and. For me, it made sense to include her in that category.

[00:26:29] Ryan Woodward: She was an all-star. Those two years she was pitching sidearm. She didn't adjust to pitching overhand well, she never pitched underhand Sidearm was her thing. Right. So, um, her first year they won the league championship. She made the All-Star team. She led there so many categories like innings pitched and games started or something.

[00:26:50] Ryan Woodward: She was just a workhorse for two years and that's something you just don't really. Read about unless you're focused on her and researching her specifically. So that's what I started to do. And then I thought, looked at the criteria for the Kentucky Sports Hall of Fame and I'm like, she meets it. She is from Kentucky.

[00:27:08] Ryan Woodward: Um, she played her professional career obviously elsewhere, but, um, she excelled in her sport. She won league championships. She like broke all kinds of records and, um, so I submitted it and. This was a process because the, um, the Hall of Fame was under, you know, the purview of different organizations. Um, at the time I was doing this, so it was like three years before I finally got her, uh, into the Hall of Fame, but they, she was the class of 20.

[00:27:41] Ryan Woodward: 20, um, which I think they inducted in 2021, all middle of pandemic. And, um, Kat Williams, our CEO, what happened to be in Louisville. Um, so that's again, where she's from and she, um, she was able to go to the induction ceremony and represent IWBC, but how cool was that? And then that. In turn becomes a spot on the trail and it becomes something for us to, um, to show off, to share with other people.

[00:28:09] Ryan Woodward: Um, I'm not sure where the actual plaque is, uh, in Louisville, but anyone seeing that knows that there were standout women in baseball, you know, as far back as 1946. Um. And that's just part of our whole educational mission. So yeah, that's a, took a long time to make that happen. But, um, I'm still glad it did and I'm still talking about it and I'm still gonna keep talking about it because I'm pretty proud of it and I, I love anything that brings, you know, attention back to, back to the hometown, the home state.

[00:28:43] Ryan Woodward: So, yeah. 

[00:28:46] Mark Corbett: I'm with you, brother. I'm with you. I'm so glad you did that too, and until I said myself, I'm trying to think how I first. got, ensnared into the whole thing with women in baseball. And believe it or not, it probably started with me working at the Tampa Baseball Museum www.https://www.tampabaseballmuseum.org/ and seeing the, the piece on Shu Shu and I just wanted to start learning more.

[00:29:06] Mark Corbett: And then the next thing I had never really realized the USA Women's National team and then that, you know, digging more also into the All Americans. And next thing I know, I'm interview interviewing Lois Youngen and, uh, Sue Zipay you know, two of the All Americans. And. My gosh. The, the history just kept flowing into me where I thought, I gotta share this.

[00:29:28] Mark Corbett: I gotta, this is fantastic stuff. And these are women too, still trying to make sure that the opportunities for young girls and women today to play the game. And there's just so much of it there, but it's been a real pleasure to meet some of them. I know you've met many of them as well In your role, uh, do you have an instance of a, a story you'd like to share with about any of them?

[00:29:51] Ryan Woodward: Well, one, I just wanna say both Lois and Sue have spots on the trail. Um, I'm pretty sure Sue's in a Hall of Fame in Massachusetts, and I know Lois has a, uh, at least a field named after her in Oregon. So it's another thing if you come across either of these things, that's, that's how you're learning about 'em.

[00:30:09] Ryan Woodward: And then if you are looking to seek it out, oh, here's a tool to help you do it. Um, really, I don't have specific. Instances, memories. Um, I was really close with Shirley Burkovich, who played in the league from 49 to 51 and she passed away, in the spring of 22. And she, that was kind of a, a kick in the pants, right?

[00:30:39] Ryan Woodward: To um, 'cause I'd been talking about doing this project and um, we always have a theme for women in baseball week and Shirley's nickname when she was playing was hustle. Um, she's always telling people to hustle, you know, people telling her to hustle, just, you know, get it together and. Get to work. And, um, so we, we, the theme for women in baseball week, that year was a year to hustle.

[00:31:03] Ryan Woodward: And it was, you know, a year for her, but it was a year or two. What are you waiting for? Get started on these things. Stop talking about it. Start doing it, you know, thank you because, you know, you just, there's no need to put things off and you could be helping somebody in the meantime. Um. In ways big or small.

[00:31:23] Ryan Woodward: And, um, so yeah, actually I have here, I mean, you can't see it, but, , we had some of Shirley's stuff. Um, she had had left for us and , , this came last year, but there's a big framed article of her from, it's 1988 and it's when she was living in California, they did a local article on her, but it's, it's all the newspaper clipped and everything, but I have it like right here on my desk, you know, right in front of my computer.

[00:31:49] Ryan Woodward: Um, so she's kinda stared at me every day and, um, which is nice. Um, Shirley was just like one, one of the most lovely people you could ever wanna meet, but, um. She's also kinda staring at me and, you know, making sure I get the work done all the time. But before that, July, 2021, she and Maybelle Blair were in Pittsburgh.

[00:32:09] Ryan Woodward: , and they were visiting the filming location for the League of their own TV #ALOTO series. Right. And they had both been like advisors on that show. They were just there for like a day and a half and like the, they went and visited the set and the next morning, um. They said, do you want to have breakfast?

[00:32:27] Ryan Woodward: You know, 'cause we wanna see you. And met 'em both before worked with them obviously. And um, Maybelle was still up in the, in the room, so it was just gonna be Shirley and I having breakfast in Pittsburgh. Um, and she was, that's where she was from. You know, she grew up in Swiss Valley and it was just nice and kind of magical and we were just together and she was telling me stories about, you know, her mother would give her a nickel or.

[00:32:54] Ryan Woodward: A quarter, whatever it was, to, you know, take the train to Forbes Field and then she would go and watch games, you know, um, the early forties at Forbes Field and things like that. And just like, just baseball history in your face, but kind of no big deal. You know, she's just telling you about like how she grew up and what neighborhood do you live in now.

[00:33:14] Ryan Woodward: And that's close to where I grew up. And it was just, it was really nice. And then, you know, ultimately that's the last time I like really saw her and talked to her and, um. But it's still nice. And a lot of this that I'm doing is still because of Shirley, and I know she would be hard at work on these types of things.

[00:33:33] Ryan Woodward: So like there's no reason for me to not be hard at work on these things. 

[00:33:38] Mark Corbett: So she's still there overlooking you and telling you to hustle 

[00:33:42] Ryan Woodward: literally. Yeah. A love it. 

[00:33:44] Mark Corbett: Well, and, and you're honoring her with the, uh. The Hustle Award, the Shirley Burkovich Hustle Award, and I think this year the recipient was Beth Greenwood.

[00:33:55] Mark Corbett: Yeah, yeah. Uh, a young lady who we've also had the show in the past said, I, I love it. I mean, we're talking about a catcher. I. And catchers always get my respect. Dude, they, they know you, you talk about hustle, that it is their job. They have to move quickly. You know, the that ball's coming in and quite often you'll find that they are the, , the, the glue sometimes who kind of brings everybody together.

[00:34:19] Mark Corbett: So I think. You know, with what I know of the whole thing with the award, I can see why Shirley and Beth Greenwood, would come together with, with what you guys did there. So outstanding. 

[00:34:30] Ryan Woodward: Yeah. A lot of people, a lot of people have said that just how, 'cause Beth is kind of a quiet leader, you know?

[00:34:35] Ryan Woodward: Yeah. She, she shows her stuff through her action and her hustle and her hard work, and she's got quite the resume for somebody so. Young and the, I think ultimately what she's done for next generation, boys and girls in baseball, anybody in baseball, anybody in sports. There was few people better, uh, or more deserving.

[00:34:59] Ryan Woodward: So, um, yeah, we're really happy to do that this year. 

[00:35:03] Mark Corbett: Well, I'd like to come back to your education as in library sciences. Yeah. And you know, you, we've got a sense of how that, uh, has worked with you in putting together everything else with the uh, women's Baseball Heritage Trail, but also a lot with what you were talking earlier on, you're saying?

[00:35:22] Mark Corbett: Yeah, I, I read those two books about women's baseball and those are the ones that kept rereading. 'cause there wasn't anything there. Now. Uh, there seems to be so much more, probably, I guess maybe in the last decade. I've got the Isla Borders book I was reading recently. You know, there's some stuff about Jennifer Ring and, but what are a couple of books that you would recommend for people who wanted to learn more about women at baseball?

[00:35:48] Ryan Woodward: Well, I absolutely do love Isla Border's, um, book ma. It's "Making My Pitch". Um, and I've talked to more than one person who says it was like literally a lifesaver just because the things she touches on in that book and her whole perspective that she's sharing, I just, it really speaks to a lot of people on a lot of different levels.

[00:36:08] Ryan Woodward: So, um, that's a favorite. I've done book clubs with that book before and, um. Absolutely love that. Um, so much. I have to go way back in. Barbara Gregorich's "Women at Play". This was another 1993 book. This would've been one that I checked out repeatedly from the library and just read it over and over again.

[00:36:30] Ryan Woodward: It's such a great history of women in baseball. And she's since released, like, you know, her research notes for like different chapters of that book. I'm just content upon content and research upon research. Um, I met her in 2010. This was a complete fan moment where I saw her in a, another baseball group online.

[00:36:52] Ryan Woodward: Right? And I'm like, uh, you know. It's like, dear Barbara, hi, I'm a fan and I'm going to Chicago and I was taking a trip to Chicago and I was gonna go out and, you know, hit Racine, hit Rockford, hit South Bend, see all the All American stuff for the first time, and museums, the sites, everything that's on my map now.

[00:37:13] Ryan Woodward: Barbara was just, why don't we meet for breakfast in Chicago? And I was completely starstruck, but she's like the most down to earth, you know, lovely person ever. And she has been a. A friend ever since. And honestly, she's, she's sending me stuff every couple weeks for the trail. Um, now, which is still, I'm still star struck every time she emails me.

[00:37:39] Ryan Woodward: Um, but you know, there's a field in Ohio and here's what happened at this field in Ohio in 1932, and did you know this and this and this stuff? I did not know. And this is just high level research and, um. It's great content and I need to get it all on the map. But, um, just to have that type of support, you know, I'm certainly not doing any of this by myself.

[00:38:03] Ryan Woodward: Um, Tanith Harley, who's in Australia, she's been a giant help for finding things all over the place. Um, just, yeah, a lot of people have helped me with the trail, so, but books, um, this is evolving too. Um, I'm really into, and I'm surprised I have read three. Graphic novels about girls in baseball, um, in the past couple of months.

[00:38:26] Ryan Woodward: And those were things I was never really into until library school. I joined some book clubs and then I read a couple of graphic novels and I was just into this. And then you get into the educational benefits of it and, it's a way to, , get information to people who just maybe learn differently or.

[00:38:45] Ryan Woodward: You know, I can appreciate the visuals. I'm certainly one of those people. And, um, I just love seeing that there's, there's more and more of that. So I just finished one. I'm starting another. Read whatever's out there. , Barbara's books have meant a lot to me. Um, like I said, Isla Border's book.

[00:39:02] Ryan Woodward: And, 

[00:39:04] Mark Corbett: um, give us, give us a couple of titles of Barbara's books. 

[00:39:06] Ryan Woodward: So there's the Women at Play, um, story of Women in Baseball in the accompany research notes, you know, she has a novel too. Um, she's on first that predates that about the first woman playing in Major League baseball, which is a lot of fun. Um, I read.

[00:39:23] Ryan Woodward: Um, Martha Ackmann's book on Toni Stone Curveball. Hmm. Um, which is just a real eye-opener. You know, this talks a lot about her life and, you know, her journey from West Virginia to Minnesota to San Francisco, and then she's playing ball in San Francisco and then she's, you know, playing ball in Louisiana and then Indianapolis.

[00:39:49] Ryan Woodward: And there's so much content there with, um, but Jim Crow South was, and. The things that these teams endured, and it's heartbreaking to read. Um, but it's super important and it's one of those rare books. It's, it's as upsetting as it is, you know, inspiring and interesting, just to know that what people were dealing with and faced with and still.

[00:40:17] Ryan Woodward: Living their dream, you know, as it was playing baseball in the south and touring. Um, it's pretty incredible. I do love that. I'm very much looking forward to. Here in Rockford on Friday night, Kat Williams new book, which is a bio of Maybelle Blair is, um, officially launching here in Rockford, um, through a Rockford public library event.

[00:40:38] Ryan Woodward: And I haven't read it yet, I've been saving it. But, um, that's gonna be a fun event. That is gonna be another important contribution to, you know, the literature and the, the education that's out there. So, there's no shortage of these things. I, I post lists a lot on my social media. You may notice. Sometimes, um, um, just where to find books in your local libraries, um, where to buy them.

[00:41:03] Ryan Woodward: Um, there's a lot out there and, um, there's a lot that's good out there and I would encourage people to check out those lists and, uh, find the one that's right for you. Which one speaks to you? 

[00:41:16] Mark Corbett: We're talking with Ryan Woodward, and we've been talking of course, about the. Women's Baseball Heritage Trail.

[00:41:23] Mark Corbett: And Ryan, you've done so much. Can you again remind us where they can find out some of this, uh, information on either the IWBC or, and the, the Heritage Trail Maps? 

[00:41:35] Ryan Woodward: Absolutely. Anything IWBC related and there's links to Heritage Trail on there. Um, i iwbc.org, so International Women's Baseball Center. , there's a lot on there for IWBC projects.

[00:41:48] Ryan Woodward: Um, links to some of our finding aids, what's in our archive, upcoming events, how to become a member. It's a great way to support the work that we're doing there. Women in Baseball Week is sort of my own project. It's an IWBC project too. You find out you, it is all the same people involved eventually, you know, a lot of our work with SABR in our conferences, you know, you see the same faces over and over again.

[00:42:11] Ryan Woodward: But um, yeah, the Heritage Trail lives on the women in baseball. I. So, um, WBHT for women's baseball, heritage trail wbt.org. We'll get you there to the map. Um, still needs work. Um, there's a lot of room for improvement. I want a nicer search feature, so if you're looking for something particular, you know, that would be helpful.

[00:42:32] Ryan Woodward: It's great browsing though. It's great if you know for sure you're headed to Chattanooga, Tennessee, or you're headed to Akron, Ohio, you know, you can zoom right in on these places and see, see what's available. 

[00:42:46] Mark Corbett: Wow. Well, Ryan, I can't thank you enough brother for visiting us here today on Baseball Biz On Deck and, and sharing the stories about the trail and, and every looking at the historical and some of the people you've met and the, the books we can read to, to for further own knowledge of love of the game.

[00:43:02] Mark Corbett: So, uh, thank you buddy. Any, uh, other thoughts that you wanna make sure we share? 

[00:43:07] Ryan Woodward: Um, no. Um, just that this is always a work in progress. The map Women in Baseball Week is similarly a work in progress, so don't hesitate to reach out. There's ways to contact us on the website if you know of a spot that you think should be included.

[00:43:23] Ryan Woodward: If you have questions about where to find something, um, that's what it's there for. So I don't think this isn't a, um. A project that doesn't involve everyone's participation because it does, that's the only way it grows and has grown. And um, it's really cool those few times where someone's reached out and, you know, oh, I was passing through and I used this and I found this and it was the coolest thing to see.

[00:43:51] Ryan Woodward: Or, can you help me find a filming location for this? And. Here's what I know. Um, it's really great. So I love that. Um, the Malloy conference, uh, for SABR Malloy conference is gonna be in Louisville this August. I've not been back to Louisville in some time. I'm thinking about doing that, and I will definitely have to hit the Slugger Museum and see the Mo'ne Davis statue.

[00:44:16] Ryan Woodward: So I think everyone should make plays to check that out and make plans to come to Rockford. . Anytime this summer. If you're ever in Rockford, reach out, let me know. I would love to show you around Beyer Stadium. I'd love to show you what we have at IWBC. Um, there's references to Peaches, but a lot more here in Rockford than I think people realize.

[00:44:35] Mark Corbett: Fantastic. Well, Ryan, again, I can't thank you enough for joining us here today on BaseballBiz On Deck. It's been a real pleasure and an education, so I'm gonna be looking over that map again with each trip I've got upcoming and see where I can broaden my own, uh, knowledge as well. So thanks again. I appreciate it Ryan.

[00:44:53] Ryan Woodward: Thank you. And thank you for all that you do.

 Just a reminder you can find Ryan Woodward's Womens Baseball Heritage Trail at  wbht.org 

That's wbht.org where you may locate hundreds of historical markers, museums, archives and ballparks on Women's Baseball

You can also find Mark at BaseballBiz On Deck dot bsky dot social

The BaseballBiz On Deck podcast is live on iheart, apple, spotify, amazon music & at www.baseballbizondeck.com

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